Kevin’s Komments 09/27/2024

The Big Four (CCC&StL RR) in Cincinnati

Going home from a club meeting a couple weeks ago, George and I discussed the difficulty of finding information on the Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis RR (CCC&StL, also known as The Big Four).  The problem lies with the fact that The Big Four bought a number of smaller railroads in the late 1800s to develop its system.  It became affiliated with the New York Central around 1906.  Eventually the NYC absorbed The Big Four completely into its system around the late ‘20s to early’30s.  It ended up running longer as an affiliation of the NYC than it did as an independent.  So, if you know the smaller railroads it bought, you typically can find some of the earlier information.  If you know locations of its facilities, you can look at local historic societies and sift through their archives.  Or, you have to sort through the New York Central System documents and isolate those documents that apply.  I had done multiple searches on the CCC&StL looking for info on the Cincinnati Northern.  Sometimes I stumbled on some good stuff, but generally I came up dry.  Anyways, after thinking about the situation, the research issue ended up becoming a challenge!

I could start with a number of the Cincinnati Northern pics I have (or that the club has collected), but the club members have seen most of them.  So let’s start with another research project I undertook a few years ago – Riverside Yard in Cincinnati.

In this pic at Riverside Yard, circa 1955, two NYC crews worked alongside a C&O crew. By 1955, there was very little left that marked this yard as CCC&StL, but verbally, it was a “Big Four” yard. Photo is by J. Parker Lamb, Center for Railroad Photography and Art.

Here’s a later photo of the yard from a very similar perspective.

This is another great photo of the Riverside Yard found in the New York Central System Historical Society collection.

This is the result of my research a few years back. The daughter of the builder of the Riverside roundhouse had contacted me and explained that she was looking for a photo of the roundhouse to put in a book. She explained that it was a Big Four facility in which no one could find pics of the roundhouse. After long searches aimed at the CCC&StL, I realized that the NYC System Historic Society might have pics, and voila! – a 1928 photo of the engine house. The roundhouse was built as CCC&StL, but within a few years, the railroad was completely absorbed into its affiliate the NYC

Here’s an additional photo along with a write up that I found in the historical society collection

Up North of Cincinnati was the Big Four yard in Sharonville. I just recently found this photo from the J. Parker Lamb collection at the Center for Railroad Photography and Art. Again, the date was in 1955, and the afternoon sun is highlighting the smokebox of a NYC Mikado parked in the roundhouse. For me, this pic is an outstanding find! Did I mention that J. Parker Lamb is one of my favorite photographers?

I found this exterior pic of the Sharonville yard roundhouse on the Society of Historic Sharonville’s Facebook page. The structure stood from 1928 to 1968. Most of those years it would have been a NYC facility, though locally known as the “Big Four” roundhouse.

The caption on this photo is, “Here’s the only picture I’ve ever seen of the Sharonville Big ” 4 ” RR station.” I haven’t checked to see if I can find another…yet

Here’s a pic of Sharon Yard I found on the Society of Historic Sharonville’s Facebook page.

Here’s a relatively modern (late 1800s) American (4-4-0) running near the Sharonville yard. I found this under the Society of Historic Sharonville’s collection. I’m guessing this would have been around the turn of the century. I can’t make-out the lettering, but it looks like a CCC&StL lettered loco.

Also in the Sharonville collection is this photo of a road crew taken in the ‘40s. Who remembers our discussions about roadcrews in this era closely maintaining ballast on the mainline up to but not above the top of the ties?

Again, the Sharonville collection – I found it interesting that the old Sharonville YMCA was called the “Big 4” YMCA. I haven’t verified the connection to the railroad, but I can find no other logical reason for calling it the “Big 4”. Around Sharonville many things were named after the railroad, And the “Big 4” was the common designation even though most years it was the NYC yard.

Still with the Sharonville collection – A track crew with a hand car. And, another clear look at ballast work of the era.

A Big Four signal tower near Sharonville.

Here’s a NYC heavy Pacific (4-6-2) pulling a passenger train through Sharonville. The Society of Historic Sharonville collection goes on and on. But had I not lived close to this area, I wouldn’t have known that the CCC&StL was the go between earlier lines connecting Cincinnati, Dayton, Columbus & Indianapolis, and the NYC. So much of the railroad is officially labeled NYC, but the name locally used was Big Four (or Big 4).

Back in Cincinnati – The NYC RP-210, built by Baldwin, gets a ride on the Cincinnati Union Terminal turntable in 1956. The RP-210 was the lead loco for the NYC Xplorer, a Cincinnati to Cleveland passenger train, It’s framed by a NYC unit on the left, and a PRR unit on the right. You can find many pics of the NYC around Union Terminal. But, the backside of the story was that in 1927, the predecessor railroad that was involved in the Union Terminal project was the CCC&StL (along with a number of other railroads). By the early ‘30s, before the project was completed, NYC had absorbed the CCC&StL. Hence, any pics show NYC trains and not CCC&StL trains. Again, did I mention that J. Parker Lamb is one of my favorite photographers? (Photo is by J. Parker Lamb, Center for Railroad Photography and Art.)

As the Baldwin RP-210 heads to the terminal, it passes a pair of NYC Fairbank Morse C-liners (I believe). Photo is by J. Parker Lamb, Center for Railroad Photography and Art

…And, the Xplorer departs for Cleveland with Union Terminal in the background. The streamlined cars were all built by Pullman Standard. Photo is by J. Parker Lamb, Center for Railroad Photography and Art.

Here’s another pic of the Union Terminal roundhouse.  I find this a fascinating photo because of the two steamers sitting side by side, facing opposite directions.  The NYC loco is #3144, a Mohawk (4-8-2) built by Lima.  It was a Class L-4b which was the last run of Mohawks for the NYC.  The N&W loco is #134, a Mountain (4-8-2) built by Baldwin.  It was Class K2a.  So, you have competing railroads, with near same locomotives, named differently because of RR biases, and built by competing locomotive shops…and pointing in opposite directions!

Prior to Cincinnati Union Terminal, the CCC&StL picked up passengers in Cincinnati at the Grand Union Station on Central Ave between 2nd and 3rd streets.  The street car tracks are on 3rd St, with Central Ave going down the hill.  Most of the yard and through tracks run just down the hill, same block but closer to 2nd St.  There are several stub tracks for loading/unloading passengers on the backside of the station (hidden by the building).  There was a large glass canopy over the loading platforms.  I believe this area is just North of the current Bengals practice field.  That’s probably the C&O bridge in the background.  The yard tracks ran under the lead-in trestle for the bridge.  It would have been a relatively new bridge when this pic was taken (built around 1889).  Later, the Clay Wade Bailey road bridge would share a couple of the piers being built immediately east of the C&O bridge.  For those outside of Cincinnati, these two adjacent bridges are still in use today.  I found this photo in the historic Cincinnati photo collection. 

A few weeks ago, someone in the club showed me a pic of a HO model hopper lettered for the CCC&StL. I believe this might be the prototype. This is another photo I found in the NYC historical Society collection. Note how the hopper sports a NYC logo.

This is a 1938 photo of a CCC&StL steel boxcar.  Again, the NYC logo is displayed.

This is a great pic of the end panel of a CCC&StL wooden boxcar.

This is a 1898 photo of a Pullman built Big Four wood boxcar. I like the big “4” written on the door!

How about a gondola?

Remember those brown boxcars the club decaled in the ‘80s? Not a perfect match to this prototype, but close. Since it’s sporting the NYC logo (and is a steel boxcar), this is when the CCC&StL was running the Cincinnati Northern. Even though this photo was taken long after the CCC&StL had taken over the Cincinnati Northern, but still a little before the NYC began erasing the CC&StL designation, there is no indication that the builder of the cars was providing it to the Big Four. Also note the “NOR” lettering designation. This was after “CN” was changed from Cincinnati Northern to Canadian National (I believe in the early ‘20s). “NOR” was used for awhile until most equipment was lettered for NYC. The “CNor” designation didn’t appear until I believe the ‘60s, long after any equipment was being used under the old Cincinnati Northern name. This is a builder’s photo from American Car & Foundry, 1926.

Gotta add a pic for a Big Four caboose. This is #89, part of a group of (4) wheel cabooses, bobbers. I don’t know if #89 was built by AC&F (American Car & Foundry), but some of the later Big Four (4) wheel cabooses were. By 1915, only 115 (4) wheel cabooses remained on the CCC&StL roster.

This pic shows a CCC&StL Atlantic (4-4-2), 1916, with the “Big Four” lettering across the tender.  I believe this is the locomotive the Big Four sent for display at the 1904 St Louis World’s Fair.

So, most of the Big Four pics above did not actually show anything with Big Four lettering.  11 of the 28 photos were taken after the NYC consolidated the line.  Only 10 of the photos actually have “Big Four’, “Big 4”, or CCC&StL in the photo or on the photo.  Hence, searching under “CCC&StL” or “Big Four” tends to not get the best results.  The best approach after the initial search waned, was to look at the predecessor or successor railroads, and the local historic societies.  The fantastic pics from the J. Parker Lamb collection were listed as NYC photos in locations I had identified as originally Big Four.  The NYCSHS collection sometimes identified photos as being Big Four, but again, knowing the location was a big help.  The Sharonville collection was clearly identified as Big Four even though a lot of their photos were taken well after the NYC took over.  The few photos I got from Cincinnati photo archives identified correctly dated photos as Big Four, and later photos as NYC.  Interestingly, I have looked at the Wikipedia site for the CCC&StL enough times such that using it as a basis for identifying other sites has been extremely helpful.

Bottom line, researching topics where direct searches don’t provide the information needed, sometimes requires searching around the desired topic.  Find the lead in’s, the locations, the timelines, and check out the peripheral associations.

Thx,

Kevin

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